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 Creamsicle or Amel?

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TheSnakeSpectrum
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PostSubject: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:13 pm

So I have recently purchased a Cornsnake, Fanta, who I have all assumed to be Creamsicle, but after some research I'm a little bit on the fence between Creamsicle, Amel, or perhaps something else. I have attached some pictures below so you can see them, and if they aren't visible, then please refer to these photobucket links to see them Smile
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif
http://illiweb.com/fa/pbucket.gif



Here are the pictures;
Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

Sorry about the lighting...it makes it look like a different snake for each picture, but the second picture has the best lighting for the correct orange-yellow shade. If there is any more photos you would like, such as top of the head, belly, ect, please let me know.
Thanks! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:30 am

Very nice snake and pictures!!
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TheSnakeSpectrum
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:57 am

Focal wrote:
Very nice snake and pictures!!
Thankyou very much! He/she(not sure) is such a sweetheart, never even attempts to bite and loves being handled.
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pksnipr
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:54 pm

looks like a creamsicle to me.
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TheSnakeSpectrum
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:50 pm

pksnipr wrote:
looks like a creamsicle to me.
Thanks for your help Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:57 pm

dont know the difference... but eitherway its very beautiful!! and my daughter would agree because its "orange" in color Smile
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TheSnakeSpectrum
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:11 pm

smb2585 wrote:
dont know the difference... but eitherway its very beautiful!! and my daughter would agree because its "orange" in color Smile
Yeah, I'm not so sure of the distinction between the two either Embarassed But I would really like to know if I ever breed this snake. Yes, I really do admire his colors and patterns too! Although I can't imagine he had a very good past...due to a couple of scars running down his spine. :cry:
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:13 pm

Sad poor thing.... my kid loves anything orange... she will want one if I show it to her.
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pksnipr
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:51 pm

the creamsicle corn is actually a hybrid of the corn snake and the emory rat snake. the amel corn is a color morph of the standard corn. i cant remember for sure but i believe amels are just albinos. if u do choose to breed her/him you would probably have ur best luck breeding to another creamsicle if u want more. if not u could theoretically breed it back to either a normal corn or emory and produce normals hybrids.
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TheSnakeSpectrum
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:13 am

smb2585 wrote:
Sad poor thing.... my kid loves anything orange... she will want one if I show it to her.
Orange is a great color, especially on snakes. Smile Then again, I like all bright/warm colors. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:35 pm

pksnipr wrote:
the creamsicle corn is actually a hybrid of the corn snake and the emory rat snake. the amel corn is a color morph of the standard corn. i cant remember for sure but i believe amels are just albinos. if u do choose to breed her/him you would probably have ur best luck breeding to another creamsicle if u want more. if not u could theoretically breed it back to either a normal corn or emory and produce normals hybrids.
That's very interesting! I really appreciate the information. So would it be best to breed him/her to another creamsicle for better blood lines(of creamsicle) in the offspring?
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pksnipr
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:44 pm

honestly i think it really matters what You want. if you are trying to diversify your collection then i would breed back to a corn or emory. that way you can get the original hybrids. or if your snake is a male breed it to all three (emory, corn creamsicle). then uve got the best of all worlds.
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:55 pm

Okay, so now that I look back, I actually think he looks like a BUTTER instead of a creamiscle. Here are some better-lighting pics and I'll post a link of a butter cornsnake picture.(pics aren't too up-to-date)
Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucket
Photobucket

Butter cornsnake link- http://www.generalexotics.com/snakes/corn-snakes-for-sale/butter-corn-snake
What do you think?
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pksnipr
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:25 pm

i don't personally work with them but, the butter morph has natural eye color. also their colors tend towards yellows and browns rather than orange and reds. the original pics have the red eye of the albino. creamscicles also exhibit that for whatever reason. check out the corn snake morph guide or the corn calculator for examples of the major genes. truthfully though after having been bred for over 20 years in captivity a lot of cornsnake breeders will tell u even the normal captive babys are more or less a hodge podge of genes. the ease of breeding and amount of people who didn't keep records has lead to the suggestion that there is no such thing as a normal corn anymore. most, if not all carry some recessive trait as heterozygous animals. plenty of friends have told me they bred something that was "supposed" to be het for this and wound up producing something completely unexpected. it makes it interesting but, at the same time frustrating if u were really trying for a certain morph. good looking snake though.
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:40 pm

No, that snake is too orange to be a butter. Butters are usually a whitish color and a yellow. It's not an amel either, because that's just albino and would be red and white with orange spots between.

http://www.livefoodsbypost.co.uk/ekmps/shops/thepinkskink/resources/Image/Amel%20corn%20snake.JPG

My guess is it might be a mixture of two morphs? I don't know. I've seen a lot of corn snakes at shows though and used to own an amel.


Last edited by DaganGecko on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:41 pm

*deleted pic*


Last edited by DaganGecko on Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:22 pm

DaganGecko wrote:
No, that snake is too orange to be a butter. Butters are usually a whitish color and a yellow. It's not an amel either, because that's just albino and would be red and white with orange spots between.



My guess is it might be a mixture of two morphs? I don't know. I've seen a lot of corn snakes at shows though and used to own an amel.

Looks like a reverse corn
http://www.poppycorns.com/images/breederpicts/Breeders_amel/Reverse_Okeetee_amel_cornsnake_Jun08.jpg
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:40 pm

The pic I posted was of a baby amel. They have more white when they are babies.

I think it is indeed a creamsicle. And yes, they are hybrids of a sort. "Scientifically, it is known as Elaphe guttata. It is actually a cross breed of a Rat Snake and a Corn Snake with no black pigment. They are commonly known as corn snakes which is a name derived from the maize-like pattern on their abdomen resembling corn."

http://www.snakeestate.com/cornsnakes/creamsicle-cornsnake.html
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:39 pm

Creamsicles are as stated hybrids. The only Morph in play is the amel gene. So the only difference between a creamsicle and amel corn, is the emori ratsnake influence which is the cause of the more orange wash over the snake. There are pure corn camels that appear more orange so it can be tricky. Likewise some creamsicles have more red in their saddles. Just at a glance your snake does look very much like a nice creamsicle.

As for butter, definately not. Butter never displays orange or red in any degree except for their red pupils. They are the smel version of the caramel Morph. As hatchling they have light yellow or white ground color with amberish saddles. Yellow eyes with red pupils. As they grow the body turns yellow and the saddles lighten up
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:43 pm

Lol. I said corn camels! Dern auto correct. I meant corn AMELS same thing farther down. Where I mean to say butter is the AMEL version of caramel
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:29 pm

looks like sunglow to sex it check the taper of the tail short taper past the vent female,males have a longer taper past the vent.Nice looking snake
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:32 pm

I think sunglows are more red. I am really very sure that it is a creamsicle, as seen in my link: http://www.snakeestate.com/cornsnakes/creamsicle-cornsnake.html
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:45 pm

Yes sunglow should still have more red to the saddles. Genetically they are just amels, but are selectively bred to display NO white borders around the saddles. So can I see where the idea came from. This guy just seems to have that yellow/orange wash that's sooo classic of an amel corn / emori cross (creamsicle)
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:22 pm

Hmm. Well I would love to see more corn snake threads on this forum. The genetics of corn snakes are to me more complicated and difficult to understand than the genetics of ball pythons.
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:41 pm

Yea Corns are definately a different ballgame, no pun intended Laughing almost all of their morphs are recessive so they're a bit of a pain in the butt in that regard. To my understanding, Pied and Albino are among the VERY few recessive genes in the Ball Python world? If not the only? Corns being mostly recessive morphed makes them MUCH more time consuming when you're experimenting with genetic combos. there's also a huge variation within the morphs due to "selective breeding", or as some would put it "locality" variations, further complicating the whole mess. Their genetics have LONG been a subject of confusion and fascination. I only really started feeling like I was getting a grasp on it in the past few years. thankfully due to the patience of the Corn Community as a whole.
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:57 pm

Ahhh! No, there are tons of recessive traits in ball pythons, and it can get very complex, esp when you're talking about quint gene snakes! World of Ball Pythons Morph List
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:11 am

looks to me like Corns might actually be a little simpler than Balls! WOW! Corns have 2 Officially proven Dominant genes. all the rest are recessive. the only real variant is the selectively bred/locality variation on the genes, and the never ending concern about Hybrid influence. It's hard to "prove" a hybrid influence and we have a few "corn snakes" out there now that are not pure, though generally accepted as such except for the few Purists we still have. Creamsicles of course, and also we have Ultra which is a strange gene because it behaves co-dominantly when paired with the Amel gene (which by it'self is recessive), creating what we refer to as "Ultramel". the Ultra gene was introduced to the species from the Gray Ratsnake.

If you are interrested the BEST reference to up-to-date corn morphs info is located at http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/species/elaphe_guttata/
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:32 am

Thanks for the info!
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:17 pm

also the scaleless corns have been found to be a hybrid although very minimally. i believe it also came from the emory rat but, don't quote me on that.
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:49 pm

This makes me wonder about the "micro scale" corns and their purity!
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:49 pm

It's not possible to tell the difference between an amel/albino and a cremesicle just by looking at it. If it was labeled a cremesicle, I'd stick with that. It's definitely amelanistic, whatever it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Creamsicle or Amel?   Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:44 pm

iagree

Creamsicles are SOOOO variable given their origins. Some of them are... kind of obvious.

Like this guy - Male Creamsicle from Rick Krumrine Stock
The emori influence is pretty strong in this animal


But others, would be easily labeled "Amel Corn" by anyone who didn't actually produce the animal

Female Creamsicle, much more "corny" in appearance, but same exact parentage as the above snake


and just for a basis of comparison, THIS is a pure Emori Rat Snake, Amelanistic of course. This is to give those who need a visual, a better Idea of what exactly the Emori Ratsnake brought to the Amel Corn Snake. (Disclaimer: NOT MY PHOTO, GOOGLE SUPPLIED)

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