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 This Season's Plans

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ax2austin
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:10 pm

and yes very good article smb
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:38 am

jw wrote:
However, in my opinion it would be wrong to bring a child to term if you knew in advance that it would have a debilitating condition like, severe mental retardation or a condition that would cause a significant decrease in the quality of life (for a lifetime) for the child/person. Again this strays in to religious beliefs and other aspects that are beyond the scope of producing animals for the pet trade.

I don't see where it is wrong. Everyone has the right to live. How can we learn from something if we shy away from experiencing it. Some of the sweetest children have defects and issues and mental disabilities... they are still humans. Going as far to say bringing it to term is wrong is a little harsh. How can you learn about something if you are too afraid to be around it. Does that mean that growing up and in school you never friends that had disabilities??? I am not a religious person by far but that statement you made REALLY sends fire through my body.. Evil or Very Mad

Back to the subject of Spiders... it is a chance you have to be willing to take... I hate debating and arguing through forums but being shallow about a human beings life is a sensitive subject... you might want to refrain from that especially not knowing who here may have a child with mental disabilities...
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ClarkeReptiles
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:52 am

ALL spiders will wobble at some point in their life. It may be almost unnoticable like a slight head tilt (my friend's spider does this) or a head shake when excited (like my spider boy) to downright corkscrewing. It may happen as soon as the spider hatches, or it could be a few months before the spider dies. At some point it will have a "wobble" of sorts. It is simply a neurological problem linked to the spider gene. And a spider with a small wobble could produce corkscrewing babies, or a corkscrewing adult could produce babies with only a slight head tilt. It is all a matter of chance, but all will have something related to a wobble at some point.

For example, my spider male did not exhibit any kind of wobble for the first few months I had him. Then slowly he began to wobble a bit (this is before I knew about the wobble) and now he wobbles only when excited about food or breeding. He eats great, breeds great (fathered two clutches this past season) and grows wonderfully. He produced 4 offspring with the spider gene this past season, two spiders and two spinners. Both spider females have wobbles like him (only when excited) and the two spinners had pretty noticeable wobbles. The female spinner died shortly after an assist feeding (she wouldn't eat). The male spinner has to be assist fed (they all hatched out small, 50g a piece and won't eat on their own yet) and while he eats great (as soon as I put the nose of the mouse up against his mouth, he attacks it and curls it up. He just won't strike) he has a curling problem. I wouldn't consider it corkscrewing but its like he curls his food and simply just keeps curling, like he's not sure he's curled it all the way.

That's the extent of the wobble in my spiders, but I won't stop working with spiders. The bumblebees I hatched out this season fro my friend's spiders have very little wobble. They only give a little head shake right after they've swallowed food, and that's it.
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Don
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:02 am

jw wrote:
Quite the leap from producing animals for the get trade to having children. This is really apples and oranges and I would not of made this analogy.
However, in my opinion it would be wrong to bring a child to term if you knew in advance that it would have a debilitating condition like, severe mental retardation or a condition that would cause a significant decrease in the quality of life (for a lifetime) for the child/person. Again this strays in to religious beliefs and other aspects that are beyond the scope of producing animals for the pet trade.

I'm not trying to win a debate, only to express my opinion on an issue. I respect Ryan's position and if we have to agree to disagree that's fine. I think a calm friendly discussion of issues can be beneficial.

So, your opinion is that Steven Hawkins should have been aborted. Sad. No

Spiders wobble. No big deal. If they are eating regularly, healthy and grow then what is the problem? You call it a defect. I call it a trait. The wobble, as far as I can tell does not in anyway decrease the quality of life of the animal. In fact, I think it is kind of cute. It gives them personality.
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gatto152
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:09 am

if you ever saw me eat Hot wings youd think i have a wobble
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ezekiel21
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:42 am

gatto152 wrote:
if you ever saw me eat Hot wings youd think i have a wobble

LMAO

as for this subject, i think we should end it. i got a little upset last night and i have strong opinions, but i calmed down. now im reading it again and getting all worked up, lol. lets just forget this stupid thread. those of us that work with and have spiders know that there is nothing wrong with it.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:47 pm

smb2585 wrote:
I don't see where it is wrong. Everyone has the right to live. How can we learn from something if we shy away from experiencing it. Some of the sweetest children have defects and issues and mental disabilities... they are still humans. Going as far to say bringing it to term is wrong is a little harsh. How can you learn about something if you are too afraid to be around it. Does that mean that growing up and in school you never friends that had disabilities??? I am not a religious person by far but that statement you made REALLY sends fire through my body.. Evil or Very Mad

Like I said before, producing animals for the pet trade and human issues are apples and oranges.

Perhaps I didn't explain my statement correctly. In retrospect I should of replaced "a significant decrease in the quality of life" with "suffering". The word 'suffering' and the term "a significant decrease in the quality of life" are subjective and mean different things to different people. It was not my intent to include other conditions. If I knew in advance that my child would endure a lifetime of severe suffering without hope of treatment or relief, I would choose not to have that child.

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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:54 pm

Don wrote:
Spiders wobble. No big deal. If they are eating regularly, healthy and grow then what is the problem? You call it a defect. I call it a trait. The wobble, as far as I can tell does not in anyway decrease the quality of life of the animal. In fact, I think it is kind of cute. It gives them personality.

Of course it is no big deal to you, your head doesn't wobble. Spend a day, week or month wobbling your head and see if your opinion changes.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:01 pm

ezekiel21 wrote:
as for this subject, i think we should end it. i got a little upset last night and i have strong opinions, but i calmed down. now im reading it again and getting all worked up, lol. lets just forget this stupid thread. those of us that work with and have spiders know that there is nothing wrong with it.

If there is nothing wrong with it, what are you worked-up about? If you don't have a problem purposely producing animals with a known and well documented neurological disorder, then so be it. I would not do such a thing, but that just me.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:17 pm

I think it is in my best interest to stop responding to this thread in regards to breeding with spiders and wobbles and people not wanting to have children because they could be mentally messed up... I have a few choice words but it is best I shut my mouth as to not offend anyone or make this thread into what it should not be...


To get back on subject, our season's breeding plans are going to go well I hope. We put the albinos together last night for a bit... the male crawled all over the girl and they started getting cozy. I overslept this morning and didn't get a chance to check them this morning but hopefully we get a lock soon.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:37 pm

Agreed! Felt a need to speak-up for the animals, expressed my thoughts on the issue. Now lets get this topic back on track.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:56 pm

jw wrote:
Don wrote:

Of course it is no big deal to you, your head doesn't wobble. Spend a day, week or month wobbling your head and see if your opinion changes.


I thought we shouldn't compare human to snake because that was apples and oranges. I guess if it fits your point, then it is OK? You are making arguments against yourself now.

I find your opinion on Spiders to be arrogant. You say it is a neurological defect, yet show no proof. There are animals that I do not breed (not snakes) because of genetics that I do not want to replicate. Fine, however I would never go onto a website of people who own and breed those animals and imply that they are doing wrong. You are implying that you are a better person than we are because you choose not to have spiders. You have presented no evidence that a spider ball python is defective or unhealthy or has any less a quality of life than any other morph. Until you do all you are doing is stating an opinion as fact.

And, your opinion towards disabled children is offensive. This comes from a person who adopted a special needs child.
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Jabberwocky Dragons
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:32 pm

Very well said Don.

I wish I had seen this thread earlier and gotten a voice in before the cease fire was called. Allow me then to follow up on Don's post.

Every animal, including us, are just components of their genetic make up. No animal or person is genetically perfect. There are physical, neurological, and other unexplained defects that are inherent in everything.

Huskies were mentioned early as a breed with defects. To add on, EVERY single dog breed has defects. In another thread, I mentioned my doberman that became incontinent after being spayed. She also is OCD as ****. Seriously. She has texture integration issues as well as a security blanket. It's a clinical problem with the breed. You could even classify it as neurological. That said, do you have any idea how many our soldiers' lives have been saved overseas during WWII and the Korean and Vietnam Wars due to Doberman units that alerted their handlers to jungle ambushes? They had a higher success rate than any other dog breed. The neurological problem was thankfully overlooked. Keeping in mind that every dog breed has defects, should we not breed dogs any longer?

Obviously, spider ball pythons are not going to do any such thing but where do you draw the line over which neurological conditions are allowed and which aren't? It's a pretty slippery slope once you get started. As a side note, this is why I'm against any sort of animal ban on any species. Now your starting to see snakes added to the list as non pet owners ask "why not?"

I agree with you that any animals in unrelievable pain should be put out of their misery but like Don said, you have no idea about the Spider. I don't think they would be eating and thriving if they were that miserable. Every single ball python morph has some sort of defect (most unseeable) and the vast majority would never survive in the wild. That is not the aim of breeders. Otherwise we would do nothing but breed normals that are bigger, stronger, and lay more eggs. One day, these animals, among countless others, may be extinct in the wild. The popularity of them in the pet trade, which is strongly driven by morphs like the spider, may be all we have left.
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ezekiel21
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 pm

jw wrote:
ezekiel21 wrote:
as for this subject, i think we should end it. i got a little upset last night and i have strong opinions, but i calmed down. now im reading it again and getting all worked up, lol. lets just forget this stupid thread. those of us that work with and have spiders know that there is nothing wrong with it.

If there is nothing wrong with it, what are you worked-up about? If you don't have a problem purposely producing animals with a known and well documented neurological disorder, then so be it. I would not do such a thing, but that just me.

im getting worked up because someone who knows nothing about me is calling me immoral. im sure you do something on a daily bases that some would consider immoral but yet you do it and no one questions your morality. i think my points where valid and you choose not to consider them, they are just "apples and oranges". whether i am wrong for producing and keeping BPs with the spider gene is an opinion, one that it seems like your the only one here that believes. the fact that you called most of us immoral IS wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:59 pm

gatto152 wrote:
if you ever saw me eat Hot wings youd think i have a wobble

cryingwithlaughter Nice way to break it up!!!
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:27 pm

lol i tried didnt seem to work though
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:09 pm

ClarkeReptiles wrote:
All spider ball pythons (and any morph that has spider in it, like bumblebees, spinners, etc) have a wobble which means they can have something as mild as a head tilt, wobble a bit when excited, or something as extreme as corkscrewing (twisting and curling around when they try to move or strike at food). ALL spiders have some kind of wobble in their life time. My male has a head wobble when he's excited. My friend's spider female just has a head tilt.

NOT ALL SPIDER'S HAVE THE WOBBLE that some spider bp's do....
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:59 am

Maybe not right now, yours don't. But can you assure someone that in 20 years your spider won't wobble. It is a neurological tick that is linked to the spider gene. It may be very very slight in your spiders but each one has it. Like I said before, if you were to look at my friend's spider, you'd swear she never wobbles because her version of the wobble is so slight. She only has the tiniest of a head tilt, but its there.

And IF your spider does indeed NOT have a wobble, that doesn't mean it won't produce a corkscrewing baby. It is just the way the morph works.

Anyway, back to Season's Plans.

I'm going to be throwing my het pied male in with the normal female again today. She just finished shedding, so I'm hoping I get another lock from them. I really wish I had a male corn that I could breed to my snow female. Maybe I'll see one that the show.
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Christopher
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:32 pm

This will be my first attempt at breeding!

100% het albino female x albino male
normal females x bumble bee male
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:34 pm

good luck christopher!!!
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:47 pm

ezekiel21 wrote:
good luck christopher!!!

Thanks buddy! Next year will be much better when these babies are all growed up. Did you pick up anything good at the show?
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:56 pm

i didnt go Sad im saving up for a nice big female for next year tho.... i think ive decided to go with a lesser bee, they are beautiful!

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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:14 am

Oh man, yes they are. I want to try to make those next year. And maybe some queen bees. I'm also going to the show tomorrow to check out pieds. I think they are pretty darn cool too.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:53 am

im going to the show tommorow hoping to find a nice big lesser ill let you know ryan if i make some lesser bees :O
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:04 am

Oh, I picked up an 1100 gram lesser at the last show! He is super chill too.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:28 am

gatto152 wrote:
im going to the show tommorow hoping to find a nice big lesser ill let you know ryan if i make some lesser bees :O

lol ryan, i want one for breeding next year.... not sure what you will be feeding your babies to get them up to that weight in time, but i think i need to switch my food over tongue
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:29 am

Rat pups Gunpowder and a MRE theyll be pushin 2000g in a year with an attitude hahah
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ezekiel21
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:31 am

Christopher wrote:
Oh man, yes they are. I want to try to make those next year. And maybe some queen bees. I'm also going to the show tomorrow to check out pieds. I think they are pretty darn cool too.

it was a toss up between queens and lessers.... the lesser bees were cheaper, lol. but im just gonna save up as much as i can and see what i can get Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:32 am

gatto152 wrote:
Rat pups Gunpowder and a MRE theyll be pushin 2000g in a year with an attitude hahah

LMAO, i actually have all of that stuff..... hmmmm.....
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:57 am

Christopher wrote:
Oh man, yes they are. I want to try to make those next year. And maybe some queen bees. I'm also going to the show tomorrow to check out pieds. I think they are pretty darn cool too.

i love pieds too! they are so neat, i want to produce a pumpkin pied

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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:14 am

hoping to make a world first soon! Smile i dont have exacly what i need yet, however i have my plans all drawn out (if you will) haha, i will let you know if/ when i get results
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:22 am

My spider female has little to no wobble currently. My spider male has a head tilt when he gets super excited about food. My bee boy is just a little twitchy and crazy and strikes funny, with some ticking right before he strikes. But unless the wobble is horrific, I don't see how it actually 'hurts' the animals much. But I hate confrontation or heated debates, so I'm certainly not trying to feed into that, just offering another point of surveillance.

Anyway, my plans for this season are (roughly):

Spider x Normal
Albino x Normal
HOPEFULLY (depending on my bee's growth and weight gain) Bumblebee x Normal

All depends on whether or not my bee can get some girth on him. He was sold to me as having some slight feeding aversion, but he has eaten for me every time without fail. He is definitely smaller than his half-sister, who was hatched within a month of him, but he always eats at least two rat hoppers for me a week, so I'm hoping he can put on enough weight to be breedable this season.

Best of luck in EVERYONE'S upcoming projects!!! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:30 am

I can't wait to begin breeding for this upcoming season. If my male dinker can get up to size, I'll begin pairing in September. My pairings for the 2012-2013 Season are.... (with females on the left)

Normal X Dinker
Normal 100% Het Axanthic X Normal 100% Het Axanthic
Pinstripe X Bumblebee and Dinker (bumblebee will have to wait till Spring. He's still small)

I also have an 1100g female that is eating well now and I am considering throwing a male in with her if she gains a little more by Spring.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:56 am

Heck, I'm still working on last season! I've got two and possibly a third female still to lay. Even though I cooled to try to get all of the girls on the same schedule, they seem to be spaced out all over the place. I do know one of the pairings I'm excited about this year will be a Killerbee male (Super Pastel Spider) to a SuperBlast (Super Pastel Pinstripe). Both of these are finally up to size for breeding. As for the rest, I've got a few more months of fattening them up before I plan my pairings.
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PostSubject: Re: This Season's Plans   Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:03 pm

oooh, your talking super spinnerblasts Don!! Smile
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